Mod Archive Forums
Music Production => Sampling => Topic started by: HideawayStudio on September 05, 2008, 17:27:09
-
Here is a quick update on 99% positive identified ST-01 (46/126) sample sources prior to http://www.st-01.com going online. I have leads for another 30 or so, I'm really struggling with the percussion and there is definitely a missing synth.
ST-01 Sample: Source Synth: Source Preset & Name:
=================================================================
Call ROLAND D50 I-16 Living Calliope
DigDug YAMAHA DX21 G13 P1 Solid Bass (aka Lately Bass)
DigiHarp ROLAND D50 I-12 Metal Harp
DXBass YAMAHA DX21 G13 P1 Solid Bass (aka Lately Bass)
DxTom YAMAHA DX21 G9 P1 Electro Tom
FaeryTale CASIO CZ-101 Fairytail
FunkBass YAMAHA DX21 G13 P6 Elec Bass
Heaven ROLAND D50 I-61 Staccato Heaven
HeavySynth YAMAHA DX21 G10 P1 Heavy Synth
Heifer YAMAHA DX21 G9 P8 Heifer Bell
Hooman ROLAND D50 C-67 Choir
Horns YAMAHA DX21 G5 P1 Horns
JahrMarkt2 ROLAND D50 C-12 Metal Harp
Jetes ROLAND D50 I-54 Jete Strings
Koto YAMAHA DX21 G6 P7 Kotokoto
Licks ROLAND D50 I-85 Bones
Mechanic1 ROLAND D50 I-81 Intruder FX
MetalKeys YAMAHA DX21 G7 P4 Metal Keys
MonoBass YAMAHA DX21 G13 P4 Mono Bass
MuteClav YAMAHA DX21 G11 P5 Mute Clav
Nice ROLAND JUNO106 A33 Xylophone
NightMare ROLAND D50 I-71 Nightmare
Outlaw ROLAND D50 I-21 DigitalNativeDance
PingBells ROLAND JUNO106 B77 Pingbell
Pizza ROLAND D50 I-44 Pizzagogo
PolySynth ROLAND D50 I-55 Stereo Polysynth
PopBass YAMAHA DX21 G13 P1 Solid Bass
RichString YAMAHA DX21 G4 P6 Richstring
RingPiano ROLAND D50 I-78 Pianissimo
Shamus ROLAND D50 I-41 Shamus Theme
SixTease YAMAHA DX21 G3 P6 <6 Tease>
SlapBass ROLAND D50 I-83 Synth Bass
Stabs ROLAND D50 I-25 Harpsichord Stabs
Steinway YAMAHA DX21 G1 P1 Deep Grand
Strings7 ROLAND D50 I-A1 Legato Strings
SynClaves YAMAHA DX21 G9 P3 Breakin
SyntheBass YAMAHA DX21 G13 P3 Synthe Bass
TineWave ROLAND D50 I-56 Tine Wave
Touch ROLAND D50 I-16 Living Calliope
Voices ROLAND D50 I-17: D50 Voices
All of the above are based on original factory synth presets.
Some of the Amiga samples have been made using delays and
tailing of the original source - eg. Call
NB: Some ST-01 samples appear to be transposed by 1 octave and given
another name - hence the reason why some synth presets appear
more than once. Last Update: 27/07/08 D.Wilson.
The synth sounds I'm clueless on at the moment are:
Aligator,AnalogString,Asia,Breath,Celeste,
Chink,Cinema,DeepBass,Detune,EPiano,
ExBells,FilterBass,FunBass,Gato,Great,
HallBrass,JahrMarkt1,Klickorgan,Leader,
Magic,MonsterBass,Organ,PanFlute,Perco,
PolySynth,Pulse,RoomBrass,SoftBass,
Soundtrack,Squares,Strange,Strings1,
Strings2,Strings3,Strings4,Strings5,
Strings8,Sweep,SyntheBass,
SynthPiano,TechBass,WabberString,
WowBass.
Any more clues would be great :)
Dan Wilson, Hideaway Studio.
-
Wow, quite a bit of research done there. :) Nice job :)
-
Indeed. That's an amazing list. Thank you for the work :)
-
st-01:PopSnare2 is a Snare with Reverb from the LinnDrum =)
edit: i always wanted a roland d-50... now i got a good reason ;D
-
:) oooh many thanks for that one - I've got a Linn sample set on my EIII somewhere - I'll check it out.
Cheers,
Dan.
-
Found some more:
the ST-01:Snare1 is a Pitched up BassDrum (YES NO SHIT ;D) from the Kawai R-50 Drummachine,
the ST-01:Claps2 is from the Kawai R-50 too and the ST-01:Claps1 is from a old Yamaha Drummachine (dont know the Name, maybe RY-10 or another)
the "Aligator", "KorgString" & "Wabberstring" seems to be the same Sound with some modifications
-
Hello :) - are you sure it was the R50 as this was released in 1988 - the R100, it's big brother, was released earlier. ST-01 was released in 1987.
As for "Aligator", "KorgString" & "Wabberstring" - I came to the same conclusion - the question is which Korg of the era is it - is it Korg Poly-800, 61 or DW6000, DW8000?
I will have a closer listen to the older Yamaha drum machines - many thanks for your suggestions.
-
hmm, yes you are right, its the r-100 then (they got the same sounds)...
i also found out that some drum samples are also on the Datadisk from "Dynamic Drums" ...
(BassDrum2, Conga, Hihat2 and some more..)
-
What is the goal of Project ST-01? Is it documenting the sample sources or should we start crossing our fingers and holding our breath for a high quality remake of the set? :)
-
This project originally started just to satisfy my curiosity as I am a very avid collector of older professional studio gear as well as being a huge Amiga music fan. It turned out, however, that loads of Amiga fans became very interested in what I was doing so I decided to start on www.st-01.com. The project goals are now:
1. To identify, describe and review the studio equipment used to make ST-01
2. To identify exactly which sounds were used to make each sample
3. To record the original source sound against the ST-01 sample
4. To also provide multi-samples of the more expressive sounds eg. D50 Tinewave
5. To identify who actually produced the samples in the first place - was it Karsten Obarksi himself?? - nobody has been able to answer that one!
The project is a major task and will take a long time. I have managed to identify over 50% of ST-01 now but it will take much longer to reconstruct the original sounds as 16 bit samples. This is because even when I have found the original sound source it has proven extremely difficult to make then sound just like the ST-01 sample - this is mainly due to the studio equipment being very responsive to velocity and release rates. I therefore have to sound the right key in precisely the same way as the guy did when he made the original sample. If you were to hear Tinewave on the D50 you'd very quickly notice that it sounds different to the Amiga sample as the Amiga sound is mearly a single snapshot of what is actualy a very complex synth preset.
Fortunately I have most of the instruments identified in ST-01 in my studio so I can play with them until they sound right for high quality equivalents.
Cheers,
Dan, Hideaway Studio.
-
"Asia" & "PanFlute" are also from a DX Synth,
"Gato" is a preset Wave from the D-50 =)
-
:) Thanks for that Dr.... I will check them out at the weekend. I'm slightly surprised I missed D50 Gato... It's possible I've deleted the factory preset off my D550.
Cheers,
Dan.
-
any news there? the st-01 domain seems to be still empty ???
-
any news there? the st-01 domain seems to be still empty ???
Hi Guys - in answer to the Dr's question... very frustratingly, the chap who was putting together the website for me dissappeared without trace :rolleyes: If anyone is interested in putting the website bones/engine together then I am happy to create as much content as I've time for.
...not forgotten - just on the back burner.....
Cheers,
Dan.
-
Hi Guys - in answer to the Dr's question... very frustratingly, the chap who was putting together the website for me dissappeared without trace :rolleyes: If anyone is interested in putting the website bones/engine together then I am happy to create as much content as I've time for.
...not forgotten - just on the back burner.....
Cheers,
Dan.
Hi there,
Amazing job, Dan. It is very interesting to see what synths are behind the ST-01 samples, becouse I was a lucky owner of the disk back in the day! :)
Too bad the website thing. :(
Kind regards,
Saul
-
anyone make any progress on this project since these original posts?
-
Since I got a D-50 now, I might be able to record some of the original ST-01 samples in higher quality in the future. However, I'm also trying to identify other famous MOD samples at the moment.
I-47 Spacious Sweep is probably the best known filter sweep sample in the MOD scene, f.e. used in Purple Motion's 2nd Reality. To recreate it, play C2 and C3 at once.
C-76 Ethnic Fifths from the PN-D50-02 ROM card can be found as D50-10.WAV in the TMA Waveworld collection.
Edit: The D-50 folder in the Waveworld collection actually has an info file with all the sample sources, but they are missing the ROM card number.
-
Yeah, I really like it and interested that topic from a samples of ST-01. Then i've tried that to make a module in Amiga ProTracker, to make more notes for a music.
-
Wow this is awesome! I have always been enticed by the origins of the instruments from my song. Thank you for posting this.
-
Sorry that I'm 14 years late to the party, but "Strings6" kind-of sounds like the Roland D-50's "Glass Voices" patch (in my opinion)
Unfortunately, the only samples I have of this patch are from other websites, and I'm not sure how I would ask for permission to repost those samples here, so I can't provide any samples (i dont even have a d-50, and I haven't signed up for roland cloud, and i dont know how to find the original roland d50 rom images [i heard that they are copyrighted :( ]
Also, "KorgDoi" seems to be a Korg Poly-800 patch called "Wet Ones"
There's some pretty good samples of these synth patches on the Synthmania website, which are the samples I used for some of the comparison I did.
-
A few months after my reply, I got Full Bucket Music's "Fury800" (emulates the Korg Poly-800) Audio Unit on my 2015 MacBook Air (that I got in used condition sometime in December 2022.) I compared ST-01:HallBrass to the Poly800 patch "Muted Brass" sampled at a C5 note, and noticed that they sounded strikingly similar. I also compared ST-01 KorgDoi (at an 8363Hz sample rate, it was hard to compare when it was 16574Hz) to the Poly800 patch "Wet Ones" at (I think) a C3 note (I recorded samples of these sounds using FBM's [full bucket music's] Fury800 Audio Unit plugin in GarageBand) and they sounded pretty similar. Except, the KorgDoi sample seemed a bit slower, so I recorded Wet Ones at C4, slowed that recording down 1 octave to C3, and found that it sounded a bit more like KorgDoi. (forgot to include the slowed down example here, OOPS!) Slightly slower than KorgDoi, but overall, almost the same. I have attached a compressed ZIP folder of my audio (alongside ST-01:HallBrass and KorgDoi) in this reply.
-
I think I just found a slightly longer version of ST-01:Shaker!!! I was just messing around with the samples in SLL's song "collision" (i couldn't find this song on the Mod Archive, but I did find it on Modland) and then I clicked on sample 15 (or sample 0F if you're using an Amiga!). The sample was titled "shaker3", and when I played it back, I thought it sounded kind-of familiar, so I compared it with ST-01:Shaker, and realized that this was a longer version of ST-01:Shaker! I have the two files attached to this post here, along with a sample of a Yamaha RX17 shaker (thank you so much, KB6!) with reverb (Voxengo OldSkoolVerb "Smooth Reverb" preset.) this RX17 sample sounds nothing like ST-01:Shaker (even when slowed down an octave) but I added it for good measure, since the ST-01:Claps1 sample is just a Yamaha RX (unsure what RX model) clap sound, but with some reverb (as dr_mabuse noted here: https://modarchive.org/forums/index.php?topic=1587.msg6259#msg6259 in 2008.). dr_mabuse also said (here: https://modarchive.org/forums/index.php?topic=1577.msg6200#msg6200) that ST-01:PopSnare2 is a LinnDrum snare with reverb. Attached in this folder (same folder as the shaker and clap samples) are my attempts to recreate that sound. I have tried many different reverb sounds (with Voxengo OldSkoolVerb, and also Audacity's Built-in Reverb Effect) on a Boss DR-220A snare, (I got that sound from a sample pack from drumkito.com) a Linn 9000 snare drum, (taken from Thijs van der Vossen's 1994 "SampleSource" sample pack [the drums pack specifically]) a Yamaha RX-5 drum machine, (sound taken from samples.kb6.de. Thanks KB6!) and even Deniece Williams 1984 track "Let's Hear It For The Boy". (yes, you read that correctly!) I even added a click sound to one of the DR-220A reverb examples (because ST-01:PopSnare2, and even the original Dynamic Drums "Snare4" version of it have a click sound at the beginning.) I thought some of the DR-220A reverbs sounded kind-of similar to PopSnare2, but they're not exactly the same. This is also the case with the Let's Hear It For The Boy snare, and I feel like that one sounds the closest to PopSnare2. The Linn9000 and Yamaha RX-5 reverb samples sound completely different. Also, I noticed that in the longer "Snare4" from Dynamic Drums (or Dynamic Studio, as both programs had the same samples, and were both released by New Wave Software in 1987), the end of the sample has kind of a deep, bassy sound to it, and I haven't been able to recreate that when trying to recreate the reverb with anything, so maybe they used some sort of drum machine with reverb, but I'm also starting to think that maybe, just maybe, they might have sampled a real snare drum. I don't have any way of knowing though, because (as of April 22nd, 2023) I don't have any drum machines or acoustic drum kits. I think we need some further, more thorough analysis of the drum samples. Thanks!
-
Sorry about the double post - I had to do this because the forums wouldn't let me upload anything larger than 2 megabytes.
-
Re longer versions of ST-01 samples showing up elsewhere: I have another example.
I noticed this back in the day when dissecting Moongazer by Dr. Awesome. There was this sample, snare5, that sounded awfully familiar. So I compared it to popsnare2. Popsnare2 is exactly 4000 bytes long in the original form, but the sample from Moongazer was a bit longer. So I cut it down to 4000 bytes, and there was no doubt: The 4000 first bytes of snare5 was identical to the full popsnare2.
I have not been able to find a version of popsnare2 that is longer than 4000 bytes, so my guess is that this sample is simply Bjørn Lynne adding some reverb to the existing sample.
You can compare the two samples yourself here:
popsnare2:
https://modsamplemaster.thegang.nu/sample.php?sha1=effa87803189158c9e4f7541e4e85d3998cb7dc6
snare5:
https://modsamplemaster.thegang.nu/sample.php?sha1=7e68f602188efc89aad234a7055cb242c3afeb70
-
Good analysis! But, there is just ONE problem. You see, in 1987, a very obscure software company called New Wave Software released 2 programs for the Amiga, called Dynamic Drums, and Dynamic Studio. Dynamic Drums (and Studio) have a lot of drum samples, including one very interesting "Snare4" sample. "Snare4" is longer than PopSnare2, and very slightly longer than the "SNARE5" in Dr. Awesome's 1990 release "Moongazer". And, (as we all know,) a short version of Snare4, called "PopSnare2" was put into ST-01, a sample disk included with Karsten Obarski's 1987 "The Ultimate Soundtracker". Also, I checked the "Soundfiles" folder's file dates in Dynamic Drums program data disk (disk 2), using Crashdisk's ADF-Workshop tool (Thanks Crashdisk!) and I saw that all the samples (and most of the other files) have a file date of November 6th, 1986. So, this longer version of PopSnare2 actually originated from Dynamic Drums. Some parts of this whole Dynamic Drums thing were mentioned back in the start of this thread in 2008 (which was 15 years ago!).
-
I once made a table for ST samples (primarily for ST-01 and ST-02). Something is not included, but something, on the contrary, has not yet been met anywhere.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UUUFC-ixr7fwZmGker4GYo8cPltDDnOE6t8pQy4vfnQ/
If someone has something to add on it - I will always be glad.
Ideally, the table should look like with a bunch of links to samples and examples, but I'm just too lazy to do it. =P
I did not include completely speculative examples in the table, when the instruments are similar only in names, but the phases and timbres are radically different. This, of course, may be due to emulation flaws, but it still requires confirmation. Something is left out because I can't check it (for example, DX21 presets that use the synth's built-in envelope).
In addition, I will add that some comparisons in the topic are not true. For example "DigiDug" is not "Solid Bass" from DX21 ("SolBass" on FB-01), but "RubberBand" ("RubBass" on FB-01).
-
Good analysis! But, there is just ONE problem. You see, in 1987, a very obscure software company called New Wave Software released 2 programs for the Amiga, called Dynamic Drums, and Dynamic Studio. Dynamic Drums (and Studio) have a lot of drum samples, including one very interesting "Snare4" sample.
[snip]
Ah, I must have missed that part. I never even heard about those programs. But I am checking it out now, and seems you are right. A quick test by loading the samples into OctaMED reveals that more samples from ST-01 must originate from this, such as BassDrum2 (Bass11), Claves (Clave), Conga (Conga) and HiHat2 (HighHat2).
-
ST-01 "Marimba" is "MARIMBA2" from the Fairlight CMI.
I have no idea how a sample from an expensive $30k device could end up on Karsten Obarski's home computer, lol. But it's certainly worth checking out the rest of the Fairlight CMI samples.
-
Yeah, I noticed that about the Marimba sample. I also figured that out a few months ago, but forgot to mention it.
-
I'm not 100% sure if I'm correct, but it seems very likely that Karsten might have gotten that Fairlight Marimba sound from a songs or scores disk for Aegis Sonix or Deluxe Music Construction Kit, as a lot of those music disks' instruments were sampled from stuff like Fairlight CMIs, and (probably) Yamaha DX-series synths (or at least FM synths in general), and he probably stumbled upon one of those disks, the disk probably happened to have that Marimba sound, and he might have decided to rip the sound from the disk and put it in ST-01. This seems especially likely to me, because a lot of early mods (especially ones from 1988-89) that had non ST-01 samples usually took the sounds from these Sonix or DMCS song disks, and the drum sounds were usually some of Dynamic Drums' other sounds (besides the ones ripped and used in ST-01). Ok, I know that Dynamic Drums detail wasn't entirely relevant here, but I'm not really sure where else to mention that. Anyways, back to the Marimba sound. I saw a module called "soundfx module" (yes, that's the title. isn't that creative?) and I downloaded it. I was looking through the samples and it had ST-01:Marimba. But something about this version of the sample was different. It sounded a bit...higher quality. I compared it to the normal version of ST-01:Marimba that shows up in most versions of ST-01, and..yep. This version of the sample was indeed higher quality. I then compared both samples again, but this time, at the lower notes, to see if this was just resampled. It wasn't resampled. It was actually at a higher sample rate! So, I think this is a higher quality version of ST-01:Marimba! But, this mod was made by a mod musician by the name of Fermix. I checked this person's demo history on demozoo, and the oldest song of theirs that is on demozoo is from December 1992. (a song called "ana".) But ST-01 is from 1987. So, did this person find the original Fairlight CMI sample set, or did they happen to have a different (possibly the original) version of ST-01 (or at least the Marimba sample)? I don't know! I have attached the two samples on this post.
-
I found the long version of "Shaker" again (and this is a much older instance of it.) I also found a long version of Claps1!!! So, I was checking out the samples on Unknown Stars' 1987 Aegis Sonix scores disk "Sonix Concert 1" (both because I'm interested in the samples people used at the time, and also, this disk has a lot of early S.L.L songs [from a year before his first tracker song got released; here is the link: https://demozoo.org/productions/223307/]), and I clicked on "Shake.instr" and noticed that the waveform looked familiar (yep, i can recognize some of these sounds by waveform now), so I played the sound and, just as I suspected, it's "Shaker". But, it's the long version again, and this disk is from 1987, the year Karsten Obarski's Ultimate Soundtracker was released, meaning that either this Sonix scores disk ripped these sounds almost immediately after TUS (the ultimate soundtracker) was released, or....maybe Karsten got the Shaker sound from this disk (or another Sonix disk that happened to have this exact same shaker sound), which seems especially likely because some of the other ST-01 sounds are from the Fairlight, and a lot of Sonix disks (and even Sonix's built-in instrument library) has a few Fairlight sounds, and Karsten Obarski has never mentioned having a Fairlight. Anyways, I'm going to check out some of these other sounds. R_Astley_tomdrum (heh, it's the rickroll tomdrum!), Sussudio_smalldrum sounds cool, Tambclaps sounds...wait a second...this sounds eerily familiar....ohhh my gosh! it's another ST-01 sound! This is Claps1...but..longer? Yeah, I feel like this kinda sort-of barely supports my theory that Karsten ripped some sounds from Sonix score disks. These are Yamaha RX- drum machine sounds, but I don't remember Karsten ever mentioning anywhere that he had any sort of Yamaha drum machine. So, these two samples most likely originated from this disk, or some other disk that also had these sounds. I have them attached here.
-
This may sound crazy, but.....I found the true source of the Dynamic Drums "Snare4" sample, which was shortened to make the PopSnare2 that appears in ST-01. Let me explain. Last night, I was listening to INXS' 1983 song "Original Sin", and I was enjoying the song, but then I realized....the snare drum sounded kind-of familiar. I went back to the first few seconds of the song, where it has an isolated drumbeat. (I've included a .wav of this drumbeat in the .zip attached here.) I then played each snare hit in that beginning drumbeat at various frequencies, and most of them sounded pretty similar, but one of them stood out. When I played this specific snare hit an octave lower than what it was recorded at, it sounded exactly like Snare4 being played at a sample rate of 8363Hz. I isolated this one drum hit, loaded it into OpenMPT's sample editor, and then loaded Snare4 into OpenMPT. I then played both sounds at different notes, compared the waveforms, and....I had a match! The two sounds were exactly the same! Although Snare4 (and PopSnare2) have some clicking sounds, that's just due to how those samples were formatted (I think). Also, Snare4 has a tad bit more reverb, so my guess is that the people at New Wave Software (the company that made Dynamic Drums) probably had an alternate mix of the song laying around, or maybe they put it through some mild reverb. Other than that, the samples are a match. I found this especially exciting, because 16 years ago, in this very forum thread, somebody said it was a LinnDrum snare with reverb. Sounds good enough, except I've tried many LinnDrum snare sounds with all sorts of different reverbs, and no matter what I did, none of them sounded quite the same as Snare4. I always thought that I just wasn't using the right sounds or the right reverb, but....nope. It turns out that this person was just wrong. And I noticed that all the snare hits (in the INXS song) sounded slightly different from each other, and had natural variation.....or in other words, this wasn't a drum machine snare....this was an actual acoustic drum kit. Here, I have included a .zip file with .wavs of Linn snares (from the Gearspace forums, uploaded there by user "manfromthe80s"), the Dynamic Drums "Snare4" sample, and the INXS sounds I was talking about. I also have another .zip with those same Linn snares (with reverb), and another one with screenshots of the audio waveforms, but that exceeded the 2MB maximum attachment size here, so I had to upload them to Dropbox, and then put the links here.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jf9lnr50ap52yut2whn2z/Snare4-Materials-snare-reverbs.zip?rlkey=v790g107rqkqv4o0lufmlkenk&dl=0 (Linn Snare Reverbs)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pm2qk9ym0uumzs2i4cerj/Snare4-waveform-comparison.zip?rlkey=r9m5n2p98lby45gl9qza7j3te&dl=0 (Waveform Comparison)