Mod Archive Forums
Community => The Lobby => Topic started by: minomus on January 13, 2007, 14:57:01
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Ok, so here's the deal.
A Finnish demoscener and tracker musician, Janne Suni aka Tempest/Damage, makes a 4-channel Amiga track called "Acid Jazzed Evening" for Assembly (http://www.assembly.org) demoparty's oldskool music competition in 2000 and actually won the category. Then 6 years later, known producer Timbaland, who makes music for several known artists, ripped the track and it appeared on Nelly Furtado's track 'Do It' on her latest album 'Loose'.
This kind of things with demoscene music have happened before. In late 90s one Australian guy was selling lots of straight exported tracker modules as his own work. It's interesting that this happens and I guess it's because of these people aren't aware how popular and wide the demoscene actually is. So they think that if they haven't heard about it before, they can't get caught. And it's totally wrong thinking since most of ripped songs have been really well known in demoscene, party winners or made by most famous demosceners.
I've personally seen a lot of "this guy has stolen my music" type of threads and I'm always sceptic towards them, since really same kind of melodies can be made by accident. But this one is so clear that I think it was worth posting. Nevertheless, check the links below.
Evidence:
The original .MOD file you can get from Scene.org here. (http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2000/assembly00/oldskool/music/acid_jaz.zip&fileinfo)
A mp3 of the same file, for those who don't have proper programs for playing the sourcefile, is here (http://www.genietervan.com/hoerr/tempest_acidjazz.mp3)
A c64 musician called grg remade the song on the c64 (using the infamous SID soundchip) which is what Timbaland used for Furtado's song. Mp3 version of it here (http://www.genietervan.com/hoerr/glenn_acidjazz.mp3).
Clip from the "Do It" here (http://www.genietervan.com/hoerr/furtado_doit.mp3)
A video demonstration of the tracks here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4KX7SkDe4Q)
The source for this post, comments and more discussion here (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2274635) and here (http://digg.com/music/Timbaland_ripped_off_a_track_from_my_buddy)
This is unbelievable straight rip you rarely hear about. Also, I feel really sorry for Tempest, since I'm an old tracker musician myself and this isn't small thing like ripping a module and uploading it elsewhere with your own name, because in this case it's about serious business.
Edit:
The next is a post at the latter forum link above. The writer claims to be Tempest, can't be sure about it, but the analysis written are all correct:
"Ok. Something fooked up. I'll try again:
I came here to clear up some things...
Seems like many of the people writing here didn't even bother to listen closely to 'Acidjazzed Evening' (referred as AE from now on) and 'Do It' (referred is DI from now on), or are just plain tonedeaf. Maybe it would help if I'd explain what those songs have and don't have in common. Grab your headphones, because they really help spotting the stuff in DI that got sampled!
First: the basis of the song DI is the intro from AE. If you want to spot the similarities, then don't listen AE longer than 15 seconds, which holds 16 bars of music (no, DI is not "quoting" AE - 1-2 seconds would be quoting). There is not a single part in DI that is not based on these 16 bars. In the chorus of DI, the sampled part is cut into half and only the first half of it is being used, played over and over till the next verse, when the whole sample is being played again.
AE repeats it's intro-theme at some point, but mainly it goes to another directions. If you have hard time finding the resemblance between AE and DI, then don't listen AE for more than 15 seconds. This is crucial.
What was sampled?
For DI someone sampled the intro of GRG's C64-version of AE, but with disabling the bass-channel. The bassline was reconstructed in DI - no, It's not "totally different" than AE's bassline as someone said. It's just a stripped down version, with octave intervals removed (fe. A2-A3 -> A2) and 2-3 notes left out. There are 6 different chords (of which many are repeated) in AE's intro, jazzy kind of chords that for most I dont even know their names, but I'll list them here to show that it's not a typical pop-song chord-progression (actually if someone can find a similar chord-progression, I'll give him a beer or two):
G# C C# F | A# C# F G# | G# C# D# F | F# A# C# F | A# C D# G# | G# C D# F
Each column represents a list of notes used in each chord. It's not the actual chord-progression, but a list of the 6 chords (most popsongs have around 3-4 chords all together) used in the intro, but I think you get the point...
The chords are arpeggiated, which means that the notes in the chord are being played at the same time, but being rapidly from lowest note to the highest and not at the same time. This is a crucial point for anyone who can differentiate a clear note from a dog bark and because chords are not usually played like this, unless you're a superfast heavy metal guitar player, J. C. Bach or a 80s homecomputer-soundchip with only 3 channels available.
But in mainstream pop music? No chance.
The melody?
Listen to AE's intro few times and then listen to DI with headphones on. It's all there, playing in the background. The melody that Nelly sings is kind of a variation of the melody in AE's intro, but the original melody is also there, in the background of DI! Here's another crucial point; they didn't remove the original melody, but only lowered down it's volume and placed another melody (which Nelly sings) on top of it. I'd call this counterpoint, if the the people behind DI wouldn't be such hacks. If you want to verify my claim about the melody, then don't pay much attention to what Nelly is singing (or the drums) but everything else what is there; bassline, "background-melody" and the arpeggiated chords.
There you have it. 16 bars of music, a whole verse, which became about 4 verses in the hands of another.
I can't discuss the legal issues here. Let's just say that Big Record Companies are surely the works of The Devil.
Spread the word...
-tempest"
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:-o This is even worse than Jay of Planet-X... I still don't believe it.
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I can hear the SID arpeggios in the background in DI's song and they seem to be identical in several parts with AE. It's possible that we could turn down the voice of DI by using voice filters so the SID sounds would be more clear.
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Spread the word, spread it like the gonorrhea you contracted from that cheap hooker.
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Great Scott! I had thought today's era of music was bad before, but this takes things to a whole new level...
I'm spreading the word as we speak. :P
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Tempest will set up a site which will contain facts about the case, so that all of us don't have to guess so much. It should be up in 12 hours at http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/.
Please spread this link so that we could avoid all the guessing to the direction or another at all forums which have discussion going on atm, and we could concentrate in pure facts.
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The fuss has even spread to Finnish national broadcasting company YLE, who posted a news item about the misbehavings of Timbaland.
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/kulttuuri/vasen/id51183.html
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First thing I do when something like this happens to me is to write an invoice including a kind note saying that for further inquiries they may address my attorney at law. With small labels this actually works.
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minomus, are you currently in touch with tempest? if yes, you could maybe tell him that i can get a german translation for the text. i think it's a great idea to spread this website in different langauges...
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Please can someone give this information to Tempest if you are in contact with him (in case he doesn't have this info already).
I was told that all he needs to do is contact Finnish equivalent of the Performing Rights Society (ASCAP, BMI or SESAC in the US), and let them know he co-wrote the Nelly Furtado song. They'll have to freeze all royalties until the matter is resolved. I think this can go Tempest's way...
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Tempest is talking with lawyers and it is up to him what he's going to do. At the moment, it's better to concentrate in following the situation at the page I posted before, and leave guessing this and that on forums. Of course good discussion is always ok.
The word has already spread to some German pages, no need to do translation. It has actually spread already so wide that it has got attention enough. Now it's time to consider what to do, and Tempest is the only one whose business that is.
P.S. Nice to see that you're still hanging around, Gargoyle! Come visit #modarchive sometime :)
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Wow... ... ...
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Would it be a good idea to try to get rid of the ringtone sold here (http://msntg.zingy.com/selectItem.php?kind=xt&code=03576)?
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this is Huge!
What about some dutch attention as well? I can translate the text quite easily.
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i don't know if he needs translation at all, as minomus said, he don't even need the german one i wanted to translate.
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you know, I've just checked both versions(nelly's and Tempest) myself using a remarkable song-edition software, and I reached at the following conclusion: Too much coincidence.
OK, there are variations from one song to another, but still the "melodic structure" is quite similar, as if one were a sang version of the other.
I guess if we all, human beings, were a bit more honest inside -not to show off- these kinds of situations would be prevented; just because of the fact that we would be trying to to be kind, to do the right thing concerning other people (not to rip a song composed by a perhaps-unknown author,for instance, in this particular case); ethics.
don't know, that's what I think. We'd all feel better.
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Sadly, ethics are thrown aside in the profit-chasing world of the corporate music business. The end game is always money... would timbaland have sampled this track if he was making music for the love of it? possibly. Would he have got in contact with the original author and said 'hey, I wanna do something with your song, is that cool with you?' Well, if he was like most of us then.. hopefully...
Evidently, however, he came across this seemingly unknown track, thought it sounded cool... and didn't get in touch with the rightful author as he and his associates do not wanna share the profits.
</anti-corporate rant> :???:
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agree, sadly but agree.
but let's not give up.
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Timbaland admits using the music in this radio interview. Please listen for yourself and spread the word:
http://www.eitmonline.com/eitmonline2/media/eitmlive/timbaland2.mp3
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Timbaland admits using the music in this radio interview. Please listen for yourself and spread the word:
http://www.eitmonline.com/eitmonline2/media/eitmlive/timbaland2.mp3
There is also a Youtube version, in the above MP3 you have to look around the mid-way mark to find the part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATkHbfbQAc4
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Timbaland admits using the music in this radio interview. Please listen for yourself and spread the word:
http://www.eitmonline.com/eitmonline2/media/eitmlive/timbaland2.mp3
There is also a Youtube version, in the above MP3 you have to look around the mid-way mark to find the part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATkHbfbQAc4
Ah... thanks! Well, it seems to me like he's basically admitted guilt. He's lying about not having time to find the credits... He released the ringtone first, then one year later he released the song... he had plenty of time.
The way he distinguishes stealing from sampling is just bizarre... It's not stealing as long as you're not in the guy's house???
What kind of artist takes a finished work, adds a drumbeat and sells it as a ringtone?
He's just feigning ignorance in my opinion. He knows that he was on the wrong side of the law when he used someone else's music like that...
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Arrogancy at it's finest.
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Oh come on you guys, his analogy isn't so bad. I mean, consider this. What, exactly, does it mean to steal your TV? Clearly, stealing your TV would be following you to the store, WATCHING you buy it, and then taking it from you. Okay, that's stealing. But obviously, if I just take your TV while you're not home or while you're not looking, then that's not stealing, right? If I see a TV somewhere, clearly it is my right to take it and use it for myself. That's what we call sampling, not stealing. Everybody knows that. Where's your common sense?
(/sarcasm)
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Timbaland sounds like he is dodging a punch he has already been hit by, to be honest. He sure do some smooth talking making it sound all acceptable what he did. Typical someone who's guilty.
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Oh come on you guys, his analogy isn't so bad. I mean, consider this. What, exactly, does it mean to steal your TV? Clearly, stealing your TV would be following you to the store, WATCHING you buy it, and then taking it from you. Okay, that's stealing. But obviously, if I just take your TV while you're not home or while you're not looking, then that's not stealing, right? If I see a TV somewhere, clearly it is my right to take it and use it for myself. That's what we call sampling, not stealing. Everybody knows that. Where's your common sense?
(/sarcasm)
:lol:
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My favorite YouTube comments:
namejsdc (4 hours ago)
It's not like this music is very serious or thoughtful, so if he steals a drumbeat and notes from someone else then it doesn't matter. It's garbage music and the only people listening to that stuff are morons. Who cares about musical garbage and what morons think?
POLKJUJKI (5 hours ago)
Bleh, who cares about some beepboop sound, timbaland makes tons of money and creates MANY jobs for people. That money (the pay of the workers) shoulnd be jeopardized (spelling) by some pizzafaced geek from finnland.
Hello, my fellow pizzafaced morons. :lol:
timbaland == asshat
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My favorite YouTube comments:
namejsdc (4 hours ago)
It's not like this music is very serious or thoughtful, so if he steals a drumbeat and notes from someone else then it doesn't matter. It's garbage music and the only people listening to that stuff are morons. Who cares about musical garbage and what morons think?
POLKJUJKI (5 hours ago)
Bleh, who cares about some beepboop sound, timbaland makes tons of money and creates MANY jobs for people. That money (the pay of the workers) shoulnd be jeopardized (spelling) by some pizzafaced geek from finnland.
Hello, my fellow pizzafaced morons. :lol:
timbaland == asshat
I love the mentality
truly it gives you faith in the future of humanity :shock:
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another gem:
MizzPrincezz (1 day ago)
I believe Timbaland I don't care what anybody says, alright producers sample stuff all the time, maybe the song didn't say who made it, maybe it just said C-64 or somethin and he liked it and used it. So if you took a newspaper and crumbled it in front of a microphone and used it as a sound in a movie as special effects or something should the newspaper company be mad at you cuz they didn't get paid? That doesn't mean you're a thief.
:lol:
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Oh... My... God - A newspaper - nice comparison :D A newspaper isn't intended to sound, nor is it free to download :D Those people don't really think or they are stupid at all.
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Obviously people who write comments like that are people who have never created anything in their lives. It's hard to believe, but that's the only way one could possibly explain such lack of understanding for how frustrating it is to have someone steal something that you have created. How could you possibly compare that to making noise with a crumpled newspaper? It just amazes me that people can be daft enough to make bad analogies like that.
On an unrelated topic, it's time for some Rikimbo poetry! I found this awesome poem on Wikipedia:
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet,
And so are you.
But it had no credits associated to it... so obviously I will assume that the poem was not created by a human being, and just fell into the public domain as a result of some freak accident involving a blender and a newspaper which scrambled these words in this pseudorandom fashion. Oh well, I like it, so I'm going to sample it. Here, for your enjoyment, is my fresh, new, totally original poem:
Rikimbo's Super Special Awesome Poem
Once apon a time,
In a land far, far away,
Roses were red,
Violets were blue,
Sugar was sweet,
And so were you.
I hate my life,
And I want to die.
By Rikimbo.
I hope my poetry has touched your heart, as it comes from the most honest part of mine.
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Sorry Rikimbo, I saw it (in a game or something, I don't recall exactly), liked it, added a little something of my own and now it's mine
!
_____/ \_________
/Once apon a time,\_____
/In a land far, far away,\
<<Roses were red, \FF0000\
\Violets were blue, \0000FF>>
\Sugar was sweet, /""""/"
>>And so were you.\ /
/I hate my life, \ /
/And I want to die. Y
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
"""""""""""""""""|
|
/\ | /\
/ \ | / \
___###___
/ ### \
/ / \ \
/ \
\ /
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Has there been any more developments on this ripping case?
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at least, tempest didn't post any news at his information site (http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/acidjazzed_evening/) for a while now... :?
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It's no good that people steal music MOD or not MOD, Scene or not Scene, no matter. But let's face the simple and brutal facts: Music consists of 12 notes, and all combinations has allmost been used up. I've got music stolen myself, and that's no fun.
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That's pretty much true, yet not. I can think of many combinations of notes that have not been tried since most people strongly prefer tonal music. But yeah, few things these days are really musically original. Although we do hear new timbres and odd sounds from time to time.
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I listened to the Timbaland interview,
"Sampling" is VERY VERY common in all sorts of genres of music, especially hip-hop/house/soul/funk/rnb.
Check out http://www.the-breaks.com - basically it's a list of alot of popular music that has used samples from various sources.
There is nothing wrong with sampling.
The PROBLEM is, that NO CREDIT/ROYALTIES/MONEY was given to Janne (Tempest). It's fine to sample as long as you GET CONSENT FROM THE ORIGINAL ARTIST, and PAY ROYALTIES!
Timbaland's argument was that he heard something he liked and wanted to use it, but didn't know who to credit.
It's clear that he intended on using good music without having to pay royalties and hoping that no one would ever find out because the demoscene is not so "popular". Well, now it's for the courts to decide.
I have a feeling that his lawyers will be better than Janne's, though :(
I hope justice prevails.
JvK
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Some news...
http://www.remix64.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4922&p=65042
{please include this warning if you copy/paste this to other forums: the below may be wrong, either in detail or in full, since I haven't seen the filing. Therefore, if anyone wants to get upset about anything... WAIT FOR THE ACTUAL FILING, and base your grievance on that! At some point I'm due to get the English translation of the filing, and then (with their permission),I'll either link to it or publish it.}
It's my understanding that the filing contests that GRG has been infringed, and that his work is sufficiently different to Tempest's as to qualify for copyright protection on its own merits. Note that I don't think this stops Tempest taking his own legal action, and it's not GRG claiming that he wrote Acidjazzed Evening: it's GRG claiming that what Timbaland stole from him was protected by copyright law by virtue of possessing creative attributes attributable to GRG himself. It's just a necessary prerequisite to establish that GRG's version was a product of skill and creativity rather than being a straight port that anyone could do, so you can then establish that it was legally possible for him to be infringed.
It's my own personal theory that Timbaland's steal had nothing to do with the original MOD, and that one of his lackeys is a SID fan, who just happened to use GRG's work. My belief is therefore that GRG's version of the track was instrumental (if you'll forgive the pun) in the composition of the piece.
Again, all disclaimers, I am not a lawyer, etc, etc, etc. Interpret with caution!
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And now the case is at an end? According to the official news source it is :(
http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/acidjazzed_evening/
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It is kinda questionable what's going on now.
As quoted in my last post, there's something going on between GRG and Timba, as his tune was obviously used, so it's possibly that there will be no case between Tempest and Timba...
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And now the case is at an end? According to the official news source it is :(
http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/acidjazzed_evening/
That could mean that a financial settlement has been reached. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in the American legal system it is fairly common for legal matters to be resolved through a financial settlement in which the defendent pays money to the plaintiff, and the plaintiff in turn agrees not to talk about the case any more.
If that's the case, it could be that Tempest got some money but isn't even allowed to say that he got any money.
It's also possible that Tempest has realized he can't win, and just wants it all to go away.
Since he's not talking, we can't be sure. But since most legal disputes in the USA end in some sort of an out-of-court financial settlement anyway, I'd guess that what probably happened is Timbaland paid out some cash just to shut Tempest up and make the story go away.
However, I am not a lawyer, and your mileage may vary. ;)
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I think they must have come to some agreement by now, because I heard Timba's/Nelly Furtado's version played in a shop while I was buying clothes there last week. And I do not believe it was one of Timba/Nelly's top chart songs that can be found on the internet 2 weeks before the release date, so it must have been copied from the original CD I guess...
are there any updates on the subject?
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Yes, "Do It" is played again and again, it really pisses me off when I'm forced to hear it at school and people do not understand why I hate it.
However, seems like nobody in the public knows anything, see here:
My case regarding the controversy has come to its closure. Just as before, I will not answer any questions about the case.
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Wow. More people freakin out..
I'd be kinda be happy if timbaland would use my mods in his tunes.. It's BIG label vs. little tiny label.. i wander who will win this battle.. Just be glad someone didn't do an parody of it.. which anyone can do.. legally.. as far as i know..
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You would be happy without credit or compensation?
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...or without even knowing about that your song's been ripped until you hear it from radio and realize it's topping the charts?
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No kidding, I would be PISSED. I would publicize the crap out of it... and, yeah, obviously seek damages and/or royalties.
Don't think that some "15 minutes of fame" (acknowledged or otherwise) makes it worth it for your art and creativity to get pillaged by someone else. If you want to be famous, you can do it - it just requires some dedication in the long term.
There's that retarded saying, "good artists copy, great artists steal"... That is pure BS. Great artists create from the heart and soul, completely from within. Whoever came up with that quote is completely misguided and frankly not remotely worthy of any recognition as a professional, ever. Of course, it was probably coined by someone who would do anything for their 15 minutes of fame, regardless of moral/ethical sound-ness.
Yeah, my $0.02 CDN... ;)
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Eugh.
Awful for so many different reasons.
(Oops, sorry for digging up the dead thread)
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yeah stuff like this happens from time to time...
but the true artist will always remain the source...
and that is ME!!!
TRACK ON!