Mod Archive Forums
Community => Project / Coder's Corner => Topic started by: Saga Musix on March 14, 2007, 17:28:12
-
Hi, finally, there's a new module format coming with OpenModplug. it's called MPTM (that's also the extension) and will be supported in OpenMPT 1.17.03.00 (it's still alpha).
So my question is, can you support the MPTM format in the near future? afaik it's still an IT-style format (maybe even the same, but with a few changes like the new tuning of the insturments)...
Another request:
VST plugins get popular these days, and even I use them now :) I know that it is too hard, maybe even impossible to upload them all at one place, but wouldn't it be a cool idea to SCAN the uploaded modules for used plugins? The needed plugins could be displayed at the song info page then and someone could also compile a list with the download sources to the freeware plugins...
-jojo
edit: don't rush, the file format is not really public yet ;)
-
I think it's too early to put support in at the moment as we'll have to wait for more players to support the format.
-
but modplug is a very well known tracker, many people are using it, and when then new version is public (which may take a while), many people will use the new format for sure, i tell ya :)
-
Don't be so sure, Jojo. Sure, a new format is great, but that does not mean people will abandon the olde format. I'm sure I will stick to the older formats as I am a backward kind of person.
Well, once that new format is developed enough for an all-go, you could post about it here later.
-
but modplug is a very well known tracker, many people are using it, and when then new version is public (which may take a while), many people will use the new format for sure, i tell ya :)
Yes but that's a tracker, not a player ;)
I'd want to wait till XMPlay supported the file format before adding support into TMA.
-
I've been using MPT 1.16 for a couple of years now and for me it's the ultimate tracker.
But whenever I try to win some new tracking souls among my friends and acquaintances, I have to hook them up with MPT 1.17, because MPT 1.16 isn't downloadable from their website anymore.
As far as I've used it yet, it could go straight down the sewers.
It's terrible for someone who's used to the Fasttracker 2 colour and keyboard setup.
but I thought it's still only a beta, so we have to stay tuned for updates, I'd say.
-
There's a v1.17 now? Are you sure that is not OpenModPlug Tracker? Or has Olivier Lapique himself gotten down to update the code himself?
EDIT: Just looked on modplug.com, and v1.16 is still available as a Starter Kit version. Got to try v1.17 now.
-
1.17 IS defined as openModplug, they continue the version history ;) the next big step towards a even greater tracker will be v1.17.3.0, coz it has - as say- its own file format and special tuning settings. as far as i can understand those settings, you are able to alter the note frequency associated to the notes... so you could easly play not only in halftones but also in cents :)
-
edit: don't rush, the file format is not really public yet ;)
No rush indeed - it's still on quite experimental status :)
But whenever I try to win some new tracking souls among my friends and acquaintances, I have to hook them up with MPT 1.17, because MPT 1.16 isn't downloadable from their website anymore.
As far as I've used it yet, it could go straight down the sewers.
It's terrible for someone who's used to the Fasttracker 2 colour and keyboard setup.
I'm quite surprised how often I hear how people don't like, or don't even dare to try, the open source version, while my thought is closer to 'did something change?' when speaking about way GUI works. What comes to the keyboard setup, it is configurable, so slight changes can be easily 'fixed', and there are different keyconfigfiles in the release package, one of which even has "FT2Style" as part of its description.
-
indeed, when i "had to" change to openMPT instead of MPT (coz of my new soundcard), i hated the new features at a first sight - but even after a week i got used to them and don't wanna miss them - the channel manager, the increased support of VST, and so on...
-
Hopefully they come up with this new file format. So no more crippled/non-standard/incompatible IT/XM/MOD style modules made with ModPlug please.
-
by the way, i've never understood why modplug is always the "bad guy" in the scene. i mean, it does the same to IT format Impulse Tracker did to S3M, what many other trackers did to the original MOD format (including Fast Tracker)...
-
by the way, i've never understood why modplug is always the "bad guy" in the scene. i mean, it does the same to IT format Impulse Tracker did to S3M, what many other trackers did to the original MOD format (including Fast Tracker)...
That is only partly true. Both Fasttracker and Impulse Tracker invent new file formats to store their proprietary extensions. They do not alter the original file formats to be able to store information that hasn't been intented, like ModPlug does.
You can read about it here:
http://dumb.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=docs&doc=modplug
And that's only a little example how ModPlug tries to "enhance" the IT format. It also allows for incompatible XM modules having stereo samples, more than 32 channels etc. which FT2 can no longer read.
Besides that, ModPlug tracker makes no attempt at identifying itself as *the* tracker of creation, it writes "FastTracker 2" into the XM header, making it very difficult to detect whether the file has been saved with ModPlug.
-
Don't forgot that there is a so-called "compatiblity export" in OpenModplug - it generates IT files that are fully compatible to Impulse Tracker (currently not, that is. i just spotted an error in the function that inserted a wrong IT version, so impulse tracker was not able to open the file)...
geee, i hate it to argue about this stuff with "oldsk00lers"...
-
Don't forgot that there is a so-called "compatiblity export" in OpenModplug - it generates IT files that are fully compatible to Impulse Tracker (currently not, that is. i just spotted an error in the function that inserted a wrong IT version, so impulse tracker was not able to open the file)...
geee, i hate it to argue about this stuff with "oldsk00lers"...
Actually there is no arguing at all. Olivier definitely did this wrong. It would have been so easy to create a new file format right from the start. Composers happily created incompatible modules because they weren't aware of this fact and now we have plenty of replaying issues.
And yeah "Compatiblity export" sounds nice, but only people aware of the problems will use it.
-
but you also have to keep in mind that the probably most used mod player is XMplay which plays most modplug modules fine - it only lacks vst support, but i also offer mp3 downloads of my tracks that use VSTs... i mean, who uses impulse tracker to listen to IT files nowadays?
-
Modules were never meant to support VSTs and have never been. If you use VST:s, then don't distribute the module. Distribute an MP3.
For goodness sake, how obvious is not it? VST:s are programs, programs only works on their intended platform. Modules however are distributed and supposed to work dependless on their platform and player.
And Saga, there are a whole lot of people who use IT to listen to .IT modules. I don't know why you defend the inconvenience, well, "mess" that ModPlug created. The only thing it does is cause us all problem, both for the composer and the listener. It's like defending the W3C incompatibility of Internet Explorer 6 just because a lot of people use it.
And since I use ModPlug Tracker regularly, I know bloody well all it's problems and strengths enough to be pissed off by all this, especially as it always means I have to tweak my modules afterhand to make them sound acceptable in other players and trackers. Bah!
-
but you also have to keep in mind that the probably most used mod player is XMplay which plays most modplug modules fine - it only lacks vst support, but i also offer mp3 downloads of my tracks that use VSTs... i mean, who uses impulse tracker to listen to IT files nowadays?
That is just an assumption and I wouldn't count on it. There are many IT players around for many platforms. XMPlay only works on Windows and many people are listening to modules from Linux or OS X. And many people on Windows do not even know that XMPlay exists.
Personally I don't listen to tracker songs rendered to mp3. It destroys the feeling of a module when I can't watch patterns scroll and see effects triggering. But maybe that's just me.
-
Modules however are distributed and supposed to work dependless on their platform and player.
I don't think that this is the original concept of modules. Modules (MODs) were supposed to play back on Amigas in the 80s, other platforms only adopted them - and the MAC is for example a very important platform for creating music, so many VSTs have MAC support, f.e. the mda series which i use.
XMPlay only works on Windows and many people are listening to modules from Linux or OS X
XMPlay is based on BASS.DLL which runs fine on the MAC and I think there's also a linux port.
t destroys the feeling of a module when I can't watch patterns scroll and see effects triggering. But maybe that's just me.
That's right, but people can still download my tracks as normal modules. if they want the maxmium sound volume, they can download all the free VSTs i use.
okay, i'll shut up for now :shifty:
-
XMPlay is based on BASS.DLL which runs fine on the MAC and I think there's also a linux port.
BASS.DLL surely does not work on Linux or OS X, DLL stands for Dynamic Link Library and is a Windows only library format that usually contains x86 code. The BASS library might be available for those platforms, but there are not many players supporting it.
But isn't it great that with modules we actually have the freedom to choose whatever player we prefer?
That's right, but people can still download my tracks as normal modules. if they want the maxmium sound volume, they can download all the free VSTs i use.
If they use a Windows PC.
Btw. the term MAC usually stands for "Media Access Control". If you want to refer to Macintosh computers you should say "Mac" because it's Macintosh not MACintosh ;)
-
Well, as said, the mda plugins are also available on the MAC...
and you can still look at my modules if you don't have the VSTs, you'll just miss some effects... for that purpose, you'd have to download the mp3...
and as not only sceners - who use trackers - listen to my music, i think it's okay that there are mp3s...
-
Well, as said, the mda plugins are also available on the MAC...
... but there is no player on the Mac which supports Modules with VST(i). And hopefully nobody does one :razz:
-
so you want to restrict creativity just because of compatiblity? no thanks... :cross:
-
so you want to restrict creativity just because of compatiblity? no thanks... :cross:
I never said that, please don't twist the words in my mouth. I said, end this ModPlug mess with a ModPlug file format. The common module formats are not suited for what ModPlug does to them.
Does Renoise/MadTracker/Psycle/Buzz/Whatever build upon classic module formats? No it doesn't. Importing is fine, but please only export what was allowed and intended.
Period.
-
Compatibility does not restrict creativity, Saga. Not in any way at all. However, a module format that is not supposed to be able to use VST, should not be able to use VST. If such a thing is to be implemented, it has to be done in a new format, or there must be a header to indicate which version of the format to use. If ModPlug did this, there would not be any problems.
Oh, and Pailes, I must correct you on your VST statement. There are actually players that support VSTs in modules. I don't know how many, but PlayerPro allows for VSTs, both on MacOS Classic and X. It also happens to come with a bunch of VSTs to my happy happiness and has a bunch of standard VSTs allowed in the PlayerPro custom format (A very versatile format. Too bad the tracker is not working too great. But the sequencer works pretty OK.). :)
(Just noticed Pailes replied the moment I pressed "reply".)
Hmm, OK. Yeah, this made my post pretty obsolete. :>
EDIT: Oh, and I believe Renoise, although Renoise is not a player, allows for VSTs on MacOS X.
-
Oh, and Pailes, I must correct you on your VST statement. There are actually players that support VSTs in modules. I don't know how many, but PlayerPro allows for VSTs, both on MacOS Classic and X. It also happens to come with a bunch of VSTs to my happy happiness and has a bunch of standard VSTs allowed in the PlayerPro custom format (A very versatile format. Too bad the tracker is not working too great. But the sequencer works pretty OK.). :)
PlayerPro will read Impulse Tracker modules created with ModPlug that contain VST(i)? I don't think so, but if I'm wrong on this I apologize.
EDIT: Oh, and I believe Renoise, although Renoise is not a player, allows for VSTs on MacOS X.
Yeah but again, this only goes for .RNS files.
-
If ModPlug did this, there would not be any problems.
Modplug does it, at least for IT files.
The "classic" ModPlug saves IT files with version number "2.00", the original IT saves them with "2.14", "2.16" or wathever - so basically every module that has the module version "2.00" is a classic modplug module.
OpenMPT however has another version number, WinAmp (BASS plugin, of course) displays "8.88". So there is a way to distinguish between Trackers. I don't know about the XM format, though.
-
PlayerPro will read Impulse Tracker modules created with ModPlug that contain VST(i)? I don't think so, but if I'm wrong on this I apologize.
Well, you didn't exactly say that it had to be a ModPlug generated IT, just a module with VST. But that's true, PlayerPro basicly bugs with IT in general, me thinks, but at least it works. But who cares, that's not the discussion in this topic. :)
Modplug does it, at least for IT files.
The "classic" ModPlug saves IT files with version number "2.00", the original IT saves them with "2.14", "2.16" or wathever - so basically every module that has the module version "2.00" is a classic modplug module.
OpenMPT however has another version number, WinAmp (BASS plugin, of course) displays "8.88". So there is a way to distinguish between Trackers. I don't know about the XM format, though.
I see, but a version number is rather cryptic. Does IT not have a string of text as a header? That's a shame. And I believe that some IT generated IT modules actually use the 2.00 version number (early BETA versions probably), so the version number is not a guarantee. But I see your point.
-
No, IT modules only have the "IPMP" magic bytes, the version seems to be saved binary. However, Fast Tracker seems to have the version number saved as plain text, but I'm not sure (just had a quick look with a HEX editor).
-
MODs saved with Modplug tracker are crippled .... try to load them into ANY amiga tracker hangs up the complete computer
-
wow I had no idea MPT made files incompatible, but then again I dont like xmplay so I don't notice the difference in playback in MPP. MPT was the easiest tracker to use when I started so I guess I'm stuck with it.
but this new format, what cool new features will it have? I look forward to it
edit: does modplug tracker make incompatibel xms?
-
I think it would be interesting if everyone who loves to point out what's wrong with OpenMPT would take a slightly more intelligent approacd, join the forums and make suggestions on how to improve the software as well as the compatibility situation. At ModPlug Central there are forums for both bug reports and feature suggestions.
I have to ask, do you also act this way in real life? You see something wrong, that you obviously care a lot about (it's easy to tell from the agitated posts) and you don't act on it but just bitch about it with your friends? This isn't anything personal, it just annoys me when people talk things down when it would take the equal amount of time to make things better.
As for the difference between OpenMPT and MPT 1.16, it's only changes that the active community has requested, bug fixes and improved usability. New feature requests are always welcome, and if you know your way around VC++ everyone is thankful for any help you can offer to make OpenMPT better for everyone.
-
i agree with älskling. am-fm, MPT is not the only tracker that cripples oldschool MOD files. there was no real standard and many programs (including Fast Tracker) invented their own .MOD format (mind the same extension!). i guess MPT creates FT-compatible modules. for the IT compatiblity issue, try the "compatiblity export" feature in the "file menu".
-
edit: does modplug tracker make incompatibel xms?
With MPT/OpenMPT one can add 'extensions' to XM that won't be played by most XM players, but certainly one also can create XMs which playes in XM players. The unfortunate thing is that the GUI doesn't give indications which features are and which are not 'extensions'.
-
like Zxx? that isn't supported by 'real' xms right
-
indeed...
-
By the way, I didn't see anything mentioned earlier about it, but what are the new features of the MPTM format? :)
-
I'm going to move this thread as it is no longer anything to do with suggestions, more a general discussion.
/m0d
-
at the current state, it features the same things as IT does, plus the MPT hacks and a new feature, only available in mptm modules called "Tuning".
-
Err, this must be a new sort of tuning, because tuning was available even as early as on S3M, so it would not be a format specific thing in that case. ;)
I think some meat on this would be nice. :P
-
sure check the mpt forums :P
a short explanation (i haven't really tested it yet, so this may be partly wrong): you can set the tuning of every note of an instrument.
normally, it would be like this:
C-4: 22050
C-5: 44100
C-6: 88200
You can edit it using the new feature:
C-4: 32000
C-5: 44100
C-6: 64000
in this way, you can play other scales than the standard 12-tone scale more easily. it may also be useful for effects.
btw, this is not done by using frequencys but by multiplication.
-
Lol, it's like what you can do with Pulse Dream and Pulse Tools (not publicly available) then. Seems useful for some oriental instruments which uses quarter sharps, otherwise not very useful for anything.
-
i guess it can be useful in various music styles, not only oriental stuff... I can image using it for drumsets for example... still, i'm not completely sure if that's all correct what i'm saying about this feature.
-
I think any new format is good news for the community.
However, it's been a while since we've seen anything which matches IT or FT2 in popularity - saying that, even when those formats were introduced it took quite some time for S3M to be replaced in players and such...
I've seen a few hopefulls in new formats over the years - I still believe Buzz could have been the next big tracker if development had continued...Renoise sounds great but is hella complicated to use - even for an "experienced" tracker such as myself.
I want something like IT, but better! *whine whinge*
-
Then MPTM is maybe your choice... ;D The format is similar to IT, but it will expand in the future for sure!
-
What about the front end? Is that similar to It or is it still MPT/windoze style? I never got on with that :(
Writing music should be like playing a game :D (imo anyway)
-
MPTM is just a module format, the native format of OpenMPT. OpenMPT is the open-source version of the original MPT. When Olivier Lapicque (the original author) didn't have time for MPT anymore, he released the sources, and so, some programmers decided to continue this project.
-
Yes, I did hear about all that - I use Schism which is one of those offshoots...
only complaint is that they've copied the interface of IT instead on building on it :S
-
By the way, I didn't see anything mentioned earlier about it, but what are the new features of the MPTM format? :)
Compared to the 'highly extended' IT, it has extended pattern and order ranges(65000) and the tuning-feature - so 'new format' may give an impression that its something greater that it really is. What comes to the tuning-feature(which is still in experimental stage like the 'format'), it makes it possible to set the frequency of every 'note' individually without using lots of detuned samples or such - for example if one has midikeyboard, "note" for every key can be assigned individually. But indeed, this won't likely be a feature that interests that many people, but, who knows what one can find by experimenting :)
i guess it can be useful in various music styles, not only oriental stuff... I can image using it for drumsets for example...
One feature that might be of interest when dealing with drumsets, is that the name of the note can be assigned individually for every 'note'. The set of characters than can be shown on the pattern screen is, though, quite limited, and the feature may contain other defects as well.