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Author Topic: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC  (Read 28338 times)

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Saga Musix

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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2013, 23:13:42 »

You talking about nonsense..
You obviously didn´t try Milky Tracker. It plays much better but not everything is good also! OpenMPT plays like it just play notes - it is totally out - and if it is because of that it must convert ??
Yes, I did try Milkytracker. necrophilia.ams sounds pretty much the same in OpenMPT and MilkyTracker. Needless to say there are differences between OpenMPT and MilkyTracker, such as MilkyTracker resetting the default panning on every note, which is not intended behaviour. That's a limition of MilkyTracker interpreting the file as an XM file (whereas OpenMPT interprets it as an IT file). If it sounds "totally out", maybe you are using a really old version of OpenMPT? I think I've completely rewritten the AMS loader in OpenMPT 1.20 or 1.21, so try the latest version (1.22) if you haven't done so before.

How about if you find some big mistakes that OpenMPT makes in the conversion you simply tell me the details about them and I'll fix it?

Quote
how you can convert something what OpenMPT don´t support???  ;D
See what Dege said. OpenMPT converts every format into its editable formats, MilkyTracker does the same - with the difference that it has less internal formats (MOD, XM) to choose from.

Quote
Of course, probably most AMS tunes out there don't utilize those features so they should play fine after importing.
That's correct. There aren't many (if any) files that would make constant use of the up to 7 effect columns, or fine vibrato envelopes, or whatever...
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2013, 23:46:30 »

Yes, I did try Milkytracker. necrophilia.ams sounds pretty much the same in OpenMPT and MilkyTracker. Needless to say there are differences between OpenMPT and MilkyTracker, such as MilkyTracker resetting the default panning on every note, which is not intended behaviour. That's a limition of MilkyTracker interpreting the file as an XM file (whereas OpenMPT interprets it as an IT file). If it sounds "totally out", maybe you are using a really old version of OpenMPT? I think I've completely rewritten the AMS loader in OpenMPT 1.20 or 1.21, so try the latest version (1.22) if you haven't done so before.

How about if you find some big mistakes that OpenMPT makes in the conversion you simply tell me the details about them and I'll fix it?
See what Dege said. OpenMPT converts every format into its editable formats, MilkyTracker does the same - with the difference that it has less internal formats (MOD, XM) to choose from.
That's correct. There aren't many (if any) files that would make constant use of the up to 7 effect columns, or fine vibrato envelopes, or whatever...

8)
I don´t know what is it about.. I just hear the difference..  :angel:
Try to make it play like Velvet Studio which can read also other modules and play it correctly..
Do the OpenMPT like Velvet Studio for Windows and the Player - this is what I would like to..  ;)

The Velvet Studio is probably the most advance I have ever seen, and the AMS format is the most advanced format as I see it - every other format includes what Velvet studio (AMS) already has also.
You can see it in the PDF included - it can also open other advanced formats like S3M, XM, MTM and other.. And it plays correctly all of them!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 23:53:04 by eLK »
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 00:10:50 »

Quote
I don´t know what is it about.. I just hear the difference..
Yes, there are many differences between OpenMPT and MilkyTracker, most of them are because of MilkyTracker not supporting certain features, though. Another example in necrophilia.ams are the channel volume commands on channel 10/11 - they are supposed to turn the guitar samples on and off, as it happens in OpenMPT, but in MilkyTracker they are just played without any interruptions.

Quote
The Velvet Studio is probably the most advance I have ever seen, and the AMS format is the most advanced format as I see it - every other format includes what Velvet studio (AMS) already has also.
I don't really feel like counting features, but without even having to look I can think of several features that the IT format has which are not present in AMS - e.g. fully configurable MIDI macros, resonant filters and stereo samples. Compared to other formats, it also lacks DSPs (e.g. MT2, DBM), synthesized samples (MED), and many other things. The truth is - there is no single format which covers all other formats as well.

To be honest, I cannot spot any remarkable differences between the AMS2WAV output and OpenMPT's output for this specific song. Again, if you can spot any obvious errors - point them out. "I just hear the difference" is not a valid argument and suggests that you just want to hear a difference even if there is none. That helps neither me, nor you, nor Dege if he wants to try better.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 00:13:39 by Saga Musix »
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 00:22:19 »

And regarding the echo thing mentioned earlier - judging from the manual, it simply generated echo pattern commands automatically. No magic involved. It's an editor feature, not a file format feature.
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 00:30:26 »

Yes, there are many differences between OpenMPT and MilkyTracker, most of them are because of MilkyTracker not supporting certain features, though. Another example in necrophilia.ams are the channel volume commands on channel 10/11 - they are supposed to turn the guitar samples on and off, as it happens in OpenMPT, but in MilkyTracker they are just played without any interruptions.
I don't really feel like counting features, but without even having to look I can think of several features that the IT format has which are not present in AMS - e.g. fully configurable MIDI macros, resonant filters and stereo samples. Compared to other formats, it also lacks DSPs (e.g. MT2, DBM), synthesized samples (MED), and many other things. The truth is - there is no single format which covers all other formats as well.

To be honest, I cannot spot any remarkable differences between the AMS2WAV output and OpenMPT's output for this specific song. Again, if you can spot any obvious errors - point them out. "I just hear the difference" is not a valid argument and suggests that you just want to hear a difference even if there is none. That helps neither me, nor you, nor Dege if he wants to try better.

It´s nice that some tracker can open as many formats - but what is it for if it doesn´t play like it may play??
This I will never understand..
The Velvet studio opens XM, S3M - it don´t open IT because it don´t know stereo samples.. OK - the Velvet studio then should open IT also - but why if it don´t support stereo samples - so it will not interpret it corectly?? It is just an example.. Sorry - but AMS on OpenMPT don´t play as it plays on Velvet Studio - try it and you must hear it! Nevermid that is must convert something to anything - it is not an argument! I would like to hear the AMS with all its features! You may NOT to have left the interpretation on tracker itself - the music is written somehow and it may play correct in any event! If something is able to open some format it may be obvious that it will play exactly as it was meant.
If you don´t hear the difference - I will send you exported MP3 ;)  if you don´t want to install Velvet Studio..
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 00:42:37 by eLK »
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 00:41:47 »

Quote
It´s nice that some tracker can open as many formats - but what is it for if it doesn´t play like it may play??
This I will never understand..
There are many reasons, for example:
- Song authors may want to rewrite their existing tunes in a better tool. For that, they are glad about any automated help, i.e. not having to re-enter everything into patterns again.
- Many formats have rarely-used features that are simply not worth being emulated.
Seriously, would you rather see OpenMPT and Milky not having basic AMS support?! If you only want 100% perfect replayers, then there would be none - simply because no player / tracker is perfect enough to emulate another tracker (e.g. even if XMPlay claims to play XMs "100% accurate", there are still many bugs that can only be discovered by very obscure test cases).

Quote
The Velvet studio opens XM, S3M - it don´t open IT because it don´t know stereo samples.. OK - the Velvet studio then should open IT also - but why if it don´t support stereo samples - so it will not interpret it corectly??
I think IT was simply not well-known enough when Velvet Studio was written. It didn't even exist when Extreme's tracker (that's the old name of Velvet Studio) was written. At that time, no IT-compatible software could write or read stereo samples anyway, so this feature is certainly not the reason why Velvet Studio won't read IT file. Velvet Studio will also play many XM files wrongly because it doesn't emulate all XM quirks perfectly - again, is this a reason for you to drop XM support out of Velvet Studio? If it is, you are simply thinking different from 99% of all other module composers and tracker creators.

Quote
I would like to hear the AMS with all its features!
There is only one solution, as with every other format as well: Play the file in the software it was written in. That's the only way to get 100% authentic output the way the original author intended it.

Quote
If you don´t hear the difference - I will send you exported MP3 ;) if you don´t want to install Velvet Studio..
As I've said, I hear no big differences between AMS2WAV and OpenMPT - obviously I have Velvet Studio in my tracker collection.
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 00:46:01 »

So, which of the two is Velvet Studio, and which one is OpenMPT? ;)
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 00:48:42 »

OK, I don´t need the tracker, I will better wait for 100% perfect player  :angel:
OK, if 99% and I will not find the difference on first try..  ;) But it is not a case of OpenMPT yet.
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2013, 00:49:52 »

Sorry, board didn't like the second file. So here's the one you should actually compare it to!

And again: A perfect player that isn't AMS2WAV itself will never exist. Certainly there can be a player that's better than OpenMPT at playing AMS, and in theory this could be MPPWC, but nothing will ever be as accurate as the original program, unless you actually rip out the original play routines and put them in your own program.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 00:52:14 by Saga Musix »
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Re: Yet another Tracker Module Decoder - MPPWC
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2013, 01:01:07 »

I havent heard b but a is openMPT ;) but this part plays ok, but not everything plays not play like this part of this one song.. Try the others demosongs.. :) It is the shame - yes - this one plays relatively ok..
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